A young lady living in the wrong community :(
Talia's tale of being excluded from her own grandmother's unveiling made me both angry and sad. I hope that, when old enough to move, she's able to relocate to a community that doesn't think that women should be neither seen nor heard. Fortunately, there are plenty of communities that are more open-minded on the subject of women's participation in public ritual. Speaking as an outsider, it seems to me that the secret to being an Orthodox feminist is to choose one's congregation and community carefully.
posted by Shira Salamone at 8:00 AM
13 Comments:
I'm sorry, but as an Orthodox Jew, I have trouble buying this. I think she cleary has an agenda and might be exaggerating. Her mother shushed her for saying amen to kaddish? Nonsense. There is no Orthodox rabbi anywhere in the world or any classical halachic source that would say that women would not/should not answer amen to kaddish! I have been in hundreds of shuls and houses of mourning and women always say amen to kaddish! I think she is creating a straw man argument.
It seems possible to me that, in some communities in which women are forbidden to *say* kaddish, there may be the mistaken impression that they're also forbidden to *respond* to it.
Alternatively, saying "amen" to kaddish might be considered immodest for a woman in such communities, especially if she says "amen" in a voice loud enough to be heard by the men, which might account for her mother shushing her.
This may be a matter of local minhag/custom rather than halachah/religious law.
Eh, Shira, not really likely.
Her mom shushed her for some reason. Her mom is not a Halachic authority. Perhaps she thought her daughter was about to start a scene, perhaps her mother thought her daughter was about to start a fight, perhaps the mother just was being emotional.
All the scenarios that you've brought up are simply false. Women vocally say amen when men make a Brachah, that's pretty clear cut Halacha. There is no minhag/community standard/other reason issue.
"Perhaps she thought her daughter was about to start a scene, perhaps her mother thought her daughter was about to start a fight, perhaps the mother just was being emotional."
Any of the above reasons is plausible. Perhaps I was just looking at the situation from the wrong angle.
That said, I can understand why being part of a community that thinks it's better for a stranger to say tehillim/psalms for the deceased than for a relative to do so, simply because the stranger is male and the relative is female, would certainly upset me, too. I hope that Talia eventually ends up in a more open-minded community.
No Orthodox congregation would suggest that she should lead a public prayer in a co-ed setting. Say Kaddish behind a Mechitza, sure, but instead of someone else, no way.
Participate in the funeral? Sure. Open Minded Modern Orthodox communities make sure to do the Halachic requirements quickly so that integrated stuff can be permitted.
"No Orthodox congregation would suggest that she should lead a public prayer in a co-ed setting."
From my perspective, it depends on how one defines "public prayer." Psalms are frequently recited privately--I've even seen folks saying psalms on the subway. Why would it be a problem for a woman to lead in public in a co-ed setting that which she's permitted to say in private *and which doesn't require a minyan*?
"Say Kaddish behind a Mechitza, sure, but instead of someone else, no way."
I was actually present once at a Maariv/Arvit (Evening Service) Orthodox minyan (with mechitzah) at which a woman was the only person reciting mourner's kaddish. To be honest, I was floored. I've never seen that done before or since in an Orthodox minyan. The work-around, if one believes that a woman is not permitted to say kaddish unless there's also a man saying kaddish, is to do what's pretty standard in non-Ortho shuls, which is to have the baal tefillah/prayer leader "lead" the kaddish. In an Orthodox synagogue, where women never lead (that part of) a service, that would result in there always being at least one man reciting kaddish. Problem solved.
"I was actually present once at a Maariv/Arvit (Evening Service) Orthodox minyan (with mechitzah) at which a woman was the only person reciting mourner's kaddish. To be honest, I was floored."
Why are you floored? It probably shouldn't have been done, but oh well. For an impromptu Minyan, how can you avoid it. Unless it's a steady Minyan where the Rabbi makes sure someone is saying Kaddish, how do you know you have someone saying Kaddish. Ashkenazi custom is to not say Kaddish while your parents are alive.
In the real world, we're not walking encyclopedias of Halacha.
Also, back to this story... there is no actually Halachic problem of a woman wearing a four cornered garment with tzitzit. Ashkenazi custom is for women to not do so, considering the Talit Kattan a man's garment.
If a family's daughter were to leave Orthodoxy and become a Conservative Rabbi, and she joined her parents at Shul, presumably, her parents would not want her to wear a Tallit, Kippa, etc., when there. Not because they are inherently problematic, but because such things are not done in the Orthodox world. Her doing so in public would cause them embarrassment.
If this women has been open with her family with her issues, then the mom could have been braced for her daughter to make a scene. Therefore, interfering, not a matter of Halacha, but to avoid being embarrassed.
Most Orthodox people aren't experts, heck, most aren't that bright or knowledgable, just observant people trying to do the right thing.
The people who walk around the community correcting other people's behavior may be correct, but they will quickly find themselves friendless. Orthodox people like public rebukes about as much as your fellow congregants enjoy yours.
Me:
"The work-around, if one believes that a woman is not permitted to say kaddish unless there's also a man saying kaddish, is to do what's pretty standard in non-Ortho shuls, which is to have the baal tefillah/prayer leader "lead" the kaddish. In an Orthodox synagogue, where women never lead (that part of) a service, that would result in there always being at least one man reciting kaddish. Problem solved."
Miami Al:
"Ashkenazi custom is to not say Kaddish while your parents are alive."
Problem not solved, at least for Ashkenazim. :( Oh, well, 'twas a good try.
"Also, back to this story...
If this women has been open with her family with her issues, then the mom could have been braced for her daughter to make a scene. Therefore, interfering, not a matter of Halacha, but to avoid being embarrassed."
That's a distinct possibility.
Shira,
Again, what's the problem. If the woman's custom is to say Kaddish with the minyan, say Kaddish. If her custom is not not say Kaddish but say Amen, then do that. If her custom is to say Kaddish, but only if a man is saying Kaddish, then do that, you'll know if someone starts saying Kaddish, join in on word two.
If the "minyan" is, it's Zman and 10 men are here, then nobody really has an obligation to help you. If the minyan is a standing minyan, talk to the Rav about your concerns.
If you screw up, do Teshuva, drop some coins in the Tzaddakah box, and have it in mind during the next Amidah, and for bonus points, on next fast day. Move on with life.
Do not dwell on it.
And certain don't dwell on someone else's doing.
There isn't a problem.
If a Minyan has a custom of NOT having women say anything, even behind the Mechitza, they don't have a Mechitza.
If the Minyan has a concern of a woman not saying it alone, let the Minyan make certain someone is leading it.
It's always good to know different minhagim (customs) and work-arounds.
She shushed me partially because she didn't want me to embarrass myself by saying amen too loudly and drawing attention to myself because of how badly I was crying, and partially because she didn't want me drawing attention to myself because it's not tznius. I'm not exaggerating at all.
Talia, I don't understand. How can one comfort mourners without paying attention to them? Is it considered immodest in your community for a female mourner either to pray or to respond to prayer in public, and is it also considered immodest in your community for a female mourner to seek to be comforted? How is a woman in your community supposed to mourn?
The former is a totally non-halachic issue.
The latter is correct, one shouldn't draw attention to yourself.
I am pretty certain that it would not apply in this matter, you weren't drawing attention to yourself, you were mourning. Any attention drawn was incidental.
You can cut off the head of a chicken if you want a ball. You can sanctify Hashem and express emotion and grief, even if incidentally, that draws attention to yourself.
Consult a Rav, not a blog, for Halachic advice.
Consult a therapist, not a blog, for help managing difficult family relationships.
I am sorry for your loss, and sorry that in your moment of grief, it was amplified but someone's interpretation of Halacha. Your mother loves you, and no doubt thought she was doing the right thing.
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